Proposal for change of ROE 2 from 9P to 9M missiles.

[PAVEWAY]

hey Sparhawk lets just have 4 roe. that should do it.

[Nap]

If you want to change the rules for an ROE or the format of your match in general, as KV said, all you have to do is both agree, and post the conditions in the Challenge Thread.

But the scoring system only allows 3 ROE's. So you will need to make it fit somehow.

Cheers,
Nap

[Deadmeat]

Those of you that believe all aspect IR is taking the 'dogfight' out of the engagement

I'm one of them...

are probably the same ones that go 'suicide' in ROE3 when you're down to AIM-9Ms .

but not one of them . That's a big 'probably' right there.

What difference does it make whether 9P's are outdated? They still provide a good dogfight. 9Ms would be easier (I said easier, not easy) to get a kill with, and therefore less fun.

I like the clean pass too, but I suppose it wouldn't bother me too much if it were scrapped (unless people start shooting guns or AIM9s head on, that would suck. And I guess it would happen - maybe not 9Ps, but guns and 9Ms.)

[centermass]

I don't think agreeing to have the match a certain way is enough.

The rules need to explicitly dictate what is and is not allowed. Gray areas lead to confusion and disputes.

I'm still for changing ROE 2 to 9M's. You are more likely to see high aspect heater shots in the campaign and in real life. Just makes sense to try and have the competition replicate these occurrences.

I'm also for having ROE 3 be AMRAAMs only. 3 ROE's for 3 distinct weapons.

[KidVicious]

I'm one of them...

Some of the only differences with all aspect IR is the WEZ is bigger, the missile is harder to spoof, and the types of engagements typically require a bigger radius when comming toward a merge.

but not one of them . That's a big 'probably' right there.


What difference does it make whether 9P's are outdated? They still provide a good dogfight. 9Ms would be easier (I said easier, not easy) to get a kill with, and therefore less fun.

I like the clean pass too, but I suppose it wouldn't bother me too much if it were scrapped (unless people start shooting guns or AIM9s head on, that would suck. And I guess it would happen - maybe not 9Ps, but guns and 9Ms.)

Several of us are advocates of stepping up to what is currently trained in modern day airforces. Also, as stated, this eliminates possible disputes from the WEZ rule with 9ps.

If you think it's easier to win an engagement with all aspect IRs I'd recommend going up vs opponents that know how to use and defend against them .

[KidVicious]

I'm also for having ROE 3 be AMRAAMs only. 3 ROE's for 3 distinct weapons.

Gay gay gay!

Most loads today commonly include at least one all aspect IR missile. Unfortunately you have to get 2 at a time in the DF module.

[Nap]

Most loads today commonly include at least one all aspect IR missile. Unfortunately you have to get 2 at a time in the DF module.

A TE could be used instead of the DF module. This could feed into CM's other idea about including take-off, scramble, and landing as part of the engagement.

Nap

[KidVicious]

Absolutely.

[PAVEWAY]

Most loads today commonly include at least one all aspect IR missile. Unfortunately you have to get 2 at a time in the DF module.

A TE could be used instead of the DF module. This could feed into CM's other idea about including take-off, scramble, and landing as part of the engagement.

Nap

Amen!!!

[Deadmeat]

Several of us are advocates of stepping up to what is currently trained in modern day airforces.

Yes, I know, but there doesn't seem to be a good reason for that. We fly for enjoyment, RL pilots are just doing their job. We can copy their job, but that doesn't mean it'll be enjoyable.
Anyway, the F16 is 1970s equipment, why go modern?

Also, as stated, this eliminates possible disputes from the WEZ rule with 9ps.

There's no need to switch to 9Ms for the sake of eliminating these disputes, you could just scrap the WEZ rule for 9Ps. (Although personally I wouldn't be in favour of that either)

If you think it's easier to win an engagement with all aspect IRs I'd recommend going up vs opponents that know how to use and defend against them .

No-one said anything about "easier to win" I said easier to kill, and that would apply to both pilots, not just me.

Anyway, I guess as long as the 'clean first pass' rule was kept I'd be willing to try 9Ms, but I worry it might lead to a very boring engagement.

take-off, scramble, and landing as part of the engagement.

Way too much time commitment there! Just keep it sleek and simple, don't let it get big and bloated.

[KidVicious]

You're right. I submit to your logic and experience.

I'm not sure what I was thinking in proposing all aspect IR engagements to replace what's currently in ROE2.

All aspect IR engagements are over quick, require no skill, and quite frankly would be boring as you suggested.

I'm sure most don't mind dealing with AIM-9Ps blowing up on their wings, or having disputes on whether or not a shot was legal; this is about 'fun' and is quite enjoyable.

Sorry for being unreasonable. I just thought that my experience being a world champion at BFM at least a half dozen times for the Falcon genre since 1996, over 20,000 sorties, the original creator of the IDL (along with Tank) in the spirit and culture of the former William Tell Pyramid which spawned these ROEs and many before that;

...that I could be instrumental at providing insight on improvements to the current ROEs in place based upon what we're doing. Which is simulating current generation F-16 vs F-16 air to air combat.

But what do I know, I'm not even competing this season; then again, neither are you .

[Deadmeat]

You're right. I submit to your logic and experience.

I'm not sure what I was thinking in proposing all aspect IR engagements to replace what's currently in ROE2.

All aspect IR engagements are over quick, require no skill, and quite frankly would be boring as you suggested.

I'm sure most don't mind dealing with AIM-9Ps blowing up on their wings, or having disputes on whether or not a shot was legal; this is about 'fun' and is quite enjoyable.

Sorry for being unreasonable. I just thought that my experience being a world champion at BFM at least a half dozen times for the Falcon genre since 1996, over 20,000 sorties, the original creator of the IDL (along with Tank) in the spirit and culture of the former William Tell Pyramid which spawned these ROEs and many before that;

...that I could be instrumental at providing insight on improvements to the current ROEs in place based upon what we're doing. Which is simulating current generation F-16 vs F-16 air to air combat.

But what do I know, I'm not even competing this season; then again, neither are you .

Hey, come on KV, calm down. This is just a friendly airing of opinions. No need for the sarcasm.

No-one called you unreasonable, or said 9M engagements would be quick and skilless.

Check my last post again, I said I for one would be willing to try 9Ms with a clean first pass (although I don't think there should be a permanent change without a trial period first).

The IDFL admin will make the descisions about any changes that may or may not occur, and I'm guessing they'd go with the majority of opinion, whatever that may be.

[KidVicious]

Oh I'm fine bro, just a bit of sardonic humor there hehe.

I was going to suggest a poll, but it would be silly considering I'm not in this season. I'm steadfastly awaiting Nap to falconize the IDL when he's the time.

[PAVEWAY]

Way too much time commitment there! Just keep it sleek and simple, don't let it get big and bloated.

No!! It would be more realistic and thrilling If a TE would be used to simulate an air to air engagement.
The scoring system should be based on survivability and kills. Only one Engagement would be necessary to simulate All Roe’s excluding aim 9m’s. If this setup can not be used for DF in the IDL am sure it wouldn’t hurt to include a 1v1 TE engagement.

Some Ideas:

1. F-16 and E-3
A. Points would be awarded for tactically taking out the opponents E-3 and shooting your opponent down.
B. Points would be awarded for survivability and landing back to home plate with no damage.
C. Points would be awarded if you inflict any damage on opponents jet even if your shot down.
2. Using F-16
A. points would be awarded if a pilot avoids missiles.
B. points would be awarded if pilots shots down the opponents jet with a rear shot ( this would simulate the difficulty of getting behind the opponents jet not just playing chicken by shooting head-on.)
C. less points for head-on shots.
D. points for surviving the fight and landing back to home plate safely.

[KidVicious]

That's what CM and I were talking about. You got one chance, not a possible 5 sorties per ROE. Basically you gotta bring it all to the table on the first chance.

3 sorties total in the TE module. ROE1,2,3.